[Music]
I get
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Gallow and me gatri Cuba
was once the front line the missile
crisis between the US and the Soviet
Union was the closest we ever came to
thermonuclear mutually assured
destruction of the human race trust me I
remember it it felt like Humanity was
going to end before the 60s had even got
swinging Decades of US invasion
subversion assassination and Florida
based terrorism against Cuba ued but the
us could not make Cuba kneel down and
cry Uncle Sam so it seems they've given
up and decided to Make Love Not War with
Cuba or have they joining us now to
discuss this and other Cuba matters is
Bob Orum of the Cuba solidarity campaign
Bob thanks for joining us on the Sputnik
on the subject of terrorism and the Cuba
solidarity campaign you recently secured
a signal victory in the uh Battle of uh
words with the Metropolitan Police in
operation Strong Tower tell us about
that well um Strong Tower was a um a
massive um trial terrorist operation
that the Metropolitan Police staged and
for some reason they decided three of
the actors who were portraying
themselves as terrorists on that day one
of them wore a Cuba T-shirt with a Cuban
flag on it um we received loads and
loads of complaints not only from
members but from members of the public
and we immediately wrote to the
Metropolitan Police and we did receive a
um a written response um which says that
it clearly was a regrettable error um I
think um I'm not 100% convinced by that
because I don't understand why something
that was six months in the planning
actually went ahead with somebody two of
the three were dressed purely in black
black balac clavas black clothes yeah
one of them was wearing a Cuban flag
t-shirt now you would have thought that
somebody would have looked at that
person and said that is wrong because
any country's national flag would be
wrong to wear in that in that situation
what the um the the Mets said and
they've not put it on their website or
put out a press release when they said
it but they said it was um uh the person
didn't think of the significance and the
implications of wearing a t-shirt with a
national flag on it um it was a gross
blunder but it was a cruel irony on that
day as well because on that day um for a
start uh the World Health Organization
announced that Cuba had found a cure for
motherto baby transmission of syphilis
and
HIV um that should have been the news
that was being reported it was only a
month after the US had removed them from
the list of state sponsors of terrorism
a list which they've been on as a vient
disgraceful slur against Cuba for 33
years and two months so having achieved
that victory of getting them removed
from that list of terrorism then the
Cubans find them themselves portrayed in
this way across the media and it was
only by our efforts that they they pleas
and we welcome the apology but well it's
not the most folsome uh apology if I
become the mayor I'll get a better one
uh for you but uh Cuba is in the news
now a lot and it's in the news because
as we said in the
introduction uh we might be might be
about to enter a new era how does the
Cuba solidarity camp campaign see that
Prospect um well I mean the raising the
flag pole doesn't resolve the whole um
problem this is the US flag in Havana
and the Cuban flag in Washington well
they haven't they haven't raised the
flag in Havana yet but the one in
Washington has gone up but that doesn't
resolve things this is clearly a process
not an event and it's going to take some
time because there are a number of
substantial issues still still to be
resolved to achieve that normalization
of
relations um I mean obviously the
financial the commercial the economic
blockade that they've waged against Cuba
has to end um and it doesn't end
automatically as a result of this no no
and it doesn't end because part of the
things that are happening are Obama's um
uh responsibility he can do them but
some things can't the cuan Democracy act
the Holmes Burton act enshrines in
American law the fact that there can be
no normaliz ation of relations with Cuba
until um Cuba has adopted democracy and
and you know whose version of democracy
you know democracy on what basis um so
that's got to end there's the Thor
thorny problem of the illegal military
base and prison that's on Guantanamo Bay
last month there was um the house
increased massively increased the
multi-million dollar program
that are used from America to fund
internal destabilization or activities
against Cuba they also increased the um
TV Marty and radio Marty which
broadcasts anti-ban propaganda against
the the country so there's there's a
whole range of things not least the
compensation that should be looked at in
terms of the suffering and the the the
damage that has been done to Cuba over
the last 50 years and more because of
the the blockade so I think everybody
welcomes that um this has happened they
certainly welcomed the 17th of December
uh announcement in Cuba and you know
that that much is is clear but this is
this is not um the end of the process by
a long stretch all they've done is
change the strategy but the objectives
are still the same they want to create a
client capitalist state in their
backyard that ipof facto loses its own
sovereignty as part of that process yeah
but Fidel or rul that would not allow
that right um no I don't think they will
and I don't think the Cuban people will
either um I think they've they've long
understood that this is going to happen
in some form or another um and Obama has
had to seiz this moment with the the
release of the the three remaining
members of the five he's had to seize
this moment because he could ignore the
UN vote of condemnation of the blockhead
every year that that didn't bother them
but what's really bothered them is
they're being ostracized in their own
backyard all the American states and the
organization of American states has been
anti them now since 2012 they can't do
anything without the issue of Cuba being
raised so they've had to change their
tactic and what Obama said was we're
we're throwing off the
shackles that hasn't worked but we're
pivoting towards a a policy of
Engagement and they will try as you said
to to have that engagement on their
terms the Cubans I think and they're
they're great negotiators they've
they've won all the the discussion so
far they're great negotiators and I
think they'll be Resolute in their
determination to ensure the end of the
blockade Guantanamo coming back and you
know stopping even an embassy
interfering in the internal affairs of
uh a sovereign nation state because
that's what the special interest section
did if they're normalizing relations
then it has to be normal relations that
every other country gets in the world
and it should be no different for Cuba
at the very same time as President Obama
was engaging with Cuba of course and
taking Cuba as you pointed out off the
list of states that so supposedly
sponsor terrorism he put Venezuela on
that list and stepped up sanctions
against Venezuela this is an such an
obvious Paradox contradiction it's
difficult to see how it hasn't been more
widely noticed um good point George I
mean I think it has been covered in some
press um but not um you know and I think
we we work very closely with the
Venezuela solidarity campaign and that's
a message that we are intent on getting
out and sharing widely um as I said you
know V has not had that tactic tried on
it so they are trying it Cuba's had it
tried for so long they're looking for a
different yes I
uh had the privilege of uh of uh
visiting for some extended time Vietnam
and meeting with the leaders of Vietnam
one of whom said to me when you open the
doors and the windows the light comes in
but so do the Flies there are many flies
just itching to get back to Cuba the
Cuban
immigrates uh who ran away after the
revolution taking as much of their
ill-gotten gains as they could with them
uh the uh Fanatics who want to score an
ideological Victory the gangsters who
used to run Cuba the mafia and so on as
a kind of Bordello and casino and of
course normal capitalism McDonald's
drive Drive-Ins and uh and so on when
you project forward to what extent do
you see the balance between the light
coming in end of the blockade and so on
and the FES that come in with
it the the light's been on for a while
now I mean people say about um there's
going to be an influx of Americans well
there's 2 million visitors from North
America from Canada um to Cuba each year
you often hear the voices on the beach
and think that they they are Americans
it's not like Cubans haven't seen
tourists before and there haven't been
engagements with the private sector the
Cubans have done it on their terms
though and I think that's important and
the new economic guidelines that they
passed in the the a couple of years ago
have recognize that there have to be
changes and and you know no socialist
society can exist without a productive
economy you need that as Mark said to
build the social consumption fund to
fuel your health services and your
education services and everything else
that you do as a Gooding in their case
yes yes and and they need some more
investment they need some more help with
developing some of their Industries and
they will take in the private sector um
but on their terms and I think you know
we have to trust them to know how they
want to do that having looked at Vietnam
and having looked at China and I mean
look to other countries around the world
the one thing that the Cubans won't do
is simp simply fall into America's hands
they've learned the lesson in one sense
with um you know the sad demise of the
the Soviet Union they they had to go
through totally restructuring their
economy what they will have in the
future is a range of countries in which
they trade with so that they've got a
basket of um currencies and economies to
do business with and I think there will
be naturally um a relations with the
their nearest neighbor and there should
be relations with their nearest neighbor
but it will be on their terms Bob Orum
Cuba solidarity campaign thanks for
joining us on the SPN coming up after
the break is a guest I once met in the
street in Hiroshima she's the General
Secretary of CND stay
tuned welcome back to Sputnik the only
state ever to drop a nuclear bomb was
the state we've just been discussing
which insisted on its nuclear Monopoly
in its own hemisphere the US bomb which
fell on hirosima killed eviscerated so
many people they decided to do it again
3 days
later even though Japan was in the
process of surrendering so horrified
were right thinking people around the
world that a huge campaign to ban the
bomb arose in the Vanguard of that
campaign was Britain's campaign for
nuclear disarmament CN ND and its
General Secretary joins us now to Mark
the 70th anniversary of Hiroshima Kate
Hudson welcome to the Sputnik just for
those who uh for whom perhaps this was
all very long ago and that's most people
70 years kindly summarize what happened
on the 6th and the 9th of August in
1945 well on the 6th of August a US Air
Force plane dropped a single atom bomb
on the city of Hiroshima not on a
military base but on an enormous City it
was early in the morning with people
going about their business children
going to school and that single bomb
created a devastating blast a firestorm
that immediately killed over a 100,000
people and then in the days and weeks
that followed hundreds of thousands more
died from the consequences of radiation
but also from the complete breakdown of
any kind of um Health Care food water
sanitation or anything and then as you
said 3 days later the United States did
exactly the same thing dropping a single
bomb on Nagasaki again a city not a
military installation and again hundreds
of thousands of people died in that same
terrifying pattern and this took us into
a new era didn't it because it was the
first weapon of mass destruction
Unlimited in in scope and time because
of course people were still being
deformed and dying as a result of the
radiation many years uh later the second
one uh cannot be defended uh even if the
first one could uh in that uh as gatri
said Japan was already surrendering when
it was dropped but it was dropped for
another reason wasn't it it was dropped
to send a signal to other superpower the
only other superpower in the world the
Soviet Union that uh would never be the
same again yes they were wanting to
establish their military predominance
their nuclear predominance in the
postwar situation I mean sadly though it
appears that um some evidence shows that
the Americans were actually wanting to
test two different types of bombs so
kind of human guinea pigs in Nagasaki
testing the different types of Weaponry
except you'd never get away with
massacring that many Guinea
pcks absolutely of course up in arms uh
of course you weren't around neither was
I at the time um but how drastic a
change did it seem how much more deadly
exponentially more deadly did this new
Weaponry seem at the time well
absolutely I mean it was a real sea
change a real real turning point in
Weaponry obviously many thousands of
people tens of thousands of people would
be killed in Air Raids and bombing and
so on and of course we saw the terrible
losses on the battlefield particularly
in the Eastern front but the very fact
of a single bomb having that kind of
impact but I think more uniquely the
radiological consequences as you said
for decades later people would still be
dying from cancers from birth
deformities and it it wasn't something
you could see you know the radiation
could blow around no one would know who
was a victim of it and it that was a
terrifying thing completely new thing
you weren't just on the end of a
physical weapon you were at the mercy of
of something you couldn't see well we're
we weren't around at the time but we are
I'm I'm afraid old enough to have been
veterans together in the Decades of
campaigning so that this uh should never
could never happen again uh but it could
have couldn't it uh we've just been
discussing Cuba in the Cuban Missile
Crisis the United States was ready to
plunge the world into a nuclear winter
from which humankind might not have uh
survived d uh but we avoided that I
would argue through good negotiating
between Kennedy and and and krov but it
was a close- run thing uh and then they
brought their own nuclear weapons to
Britain uh having said that it was
unacceptable that there should be
nuclear weapons on Cuba they brought
them here not 90 Mi away from here but
here and that's when CND as it were got
a second wind a second second uh life
what do you recall of that particular
campaign in the ' 80s well the ' 80s as
you say it was a second wind for CND it
was a huge upsurge a spontaneous upsurge
not just organized through CND but many
local Town Village groups even Street
groups against cruise missiles because
what we all understood as you'll
remember from the time was that we knew
this would be a war fought between the
US and the Soviet Union in Europe those
cruise missiles they were intermediate
range missiles and they were precisely
to be in Britain and in Europe so the
war could be fought here and we all felt
threatened with destruction we all
thought that we would die as a result of
this terrible policy so we had massive
protests hundreds of thousands of people
we had peace camps um I went to greenh
and peace Camp many people went to other
peace camps to try and prevent that
happening so that kind of upsurge in
popular sentiment particularly Pro peace
sentiment was never seen again until the
recent protests against the war on Iraq
and yet in Britain it became a political
consensus that your rondra the campaign
for nuclear disarmament was politically
toxic fatally so so the labor party
which which had been W to an
anti-nuclear weapon position abandoned
that and learned to love uh nuclear
weapons or did it
because isn't one of the lessons of
Jeremy Corbin our old comrade's
fantastic leadership campaign that
actually whilst the MPS might be ready
to love Trident yes the rank and file in
society are not absolutely for at least
a decade since we've been closely
watching the polls about the question of
replacing Trident the majority of the
population has consistently been opposed
to Trident not just opposed to replacing
it but actually in favor of scrapping it
whether or not anyone else scraps their
nuclear weapon so Jeremy Corbin is
absolutely 100% on message with the
majority of the population and that's
what labor the labor leadership the
people who are prot tried have to
realize it's not a vote loser to scrap
Trident it's a vote
winner not least because of the money
absolutely 100 billion pounds spend 100
billion pound on nuclear weapons we
cannot use except as an act of national
side when our public services and the
the the workers that work within it are
being squeezed to the point of uh of
expiring in some uh cases we could be
using that 100 billion pounds for good
things yeah we could help to regenerate
our our economy create jobs in
sustainable energy for example in house
building Hospital building School
building and these are the kinds of
messages of course that we hear from
Jeremy Corbin which is why he's so
popular yes uh the the um Mr Ben used to
say that the hospitals and schools are
having to have flag days to raise money
whilst nuclear weapons are getting the
tax money why don't we reverse that why
don't we have a Flag Day charity
rattling cans to pay for Trident and use
the tax money for the Public Services
well I wonder how much would be raised I
wonder how many people would put money
in a 10 to buy more nuclear weap few
nuts and boats GE I think that's about
it now you've been commemorating as CND
the 70th Anniversary you've held a
series of events uh in London what does
the future look like for uh CND are you
still growing what kind of things are
you doing how can people watching this
join up for the campaign well we are
growing we have many new Young members
as you say many people now uh are feel
distanced from it they don't understand
the issues but once we make people aware
of the issues and the cost of course
what we could spend it on instead people
become aware of what an absolute
craziness it is to spend so much of our
national resources on a weapon of mass
destruction so we have new people coming
in we've got very strong campaigning now
uh in terms of parliament uh you'll be
aware that um next year there's supposed
to be a vote in Parliament about whether
or not Trident is replaced and we're
lobbying very strongly for a vote
against against that we have to win the
politicians and the so-called opinion
formers to listen to ordinary people and
make a decision against um a further
round of nuclear weapons so we could
make that decision couldn't we I mean
there are many people who are not on the
left who recognize that actually the
opportunity cost of making this father
investment and nuclear weapons is felt
not least by the poor infantry in the
forces were there last year remember in
Scotland when we drove around the
Trident base it's humongous it's truly
gigantic uh and of course it was one of
the big issues in the Scottish
independence referendum campaign no one
wants it no one in Scotland wants no one
in Scotland wants it even those that
voted uh no um so my point is that
trident can be stopped if labor gives a
lead uh it may find an echo
amongst even retired Admirals and
Generals and so on who think that
frankly this is not the best use of 100
billion pounds not even in defense terms
there are many military retired top
brass field Marshals and Generals as you
say who describe Trident as completely
useless you know militarily irrelevant
and say that it should be scrapped so
you're absolutely right the opportunity
cost in defense terms is troops could
have boots soldiers could have somewhere
decent to live they could look after the
veterans all kinds of ways in which it
could be spent how do people join candd
they go to our website which is
www.cnd.org the very best of luck thank
you very much and many more years of
campaigning k h General Secretary of CND
thank
you and now it's your turn to tell us
what you think through the portals of
social media what string G Tre on Cuba
and the us we asked has the Cold War
freezer finally thought I nobody answers
within minutes Cuba would go back to
gangsterism of 1953 but with McDonald's
Happy Meals on Hiroshima 70 years on
what has the world learned Joe Cook
observes the terrorist attacks on
Hiroshima and Nagasaki are celebrated as
necessary so we've learned that the US
and the West still control the narrative
the first
explosion uh when the United States were
still fighting Island to Island you
could make a military justification for
if not a moral one but the second
explosion cannot be justified on any
count it was a clear either as Kate
Hudson said a a guinea pig experiment or
it was a political message to others
Jimmy the fool says we've learned
America has a booming arm trade industry
and loves War and that's all that we've
got for this week which alas means
that's the end of the show you can stay
in touch with us on Twitter at rtor
Sputnik or Facebook Sputnik on Russia
today it's goodbye from me gatri and
from me George Galloway it's been
marvelous
[Music]